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APS Message Forum :: General :: Other English Language Problems :: Please Author Topic: Please (Read 261 times) Belton (Moderator) Global Moderator member is offline John Richards, APS Chairman and Forum Moderator Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 263 Location: Boston, Lincs. UK Please « Thread Started on Jul 2, 2012, 4:08pm » We haven't had anything on this board for some time so, perhaps, this won't be read for a while. However, i thought I would test feelings over something which annoys me It is the appearance of words like "realize" and "organize". Where has the "s" gone from our language? There seems no rational reason behind it, not even pronunciation, because no one writes "reazon" Can we go back to "realise"and "organise"? Please. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged John Richards (APS Chairman & Forum Moderator) Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 909 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: Please « Reply #1 on Jul 2, 2012, 9:51pm » >It is the appearance of words like "realize" and "organize". < Which are the primary spellings as given by the OED. What could be more correct than that. Mayhap we should organize the people to realize it. Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged verbivore Guest Re: Please « Reply #2 on Jul 3, 2012, 12:34am » JR: It's not that either the s or the z style is wrong; the z style is Oxford and the s style is Cambridge. Would you take on Oxford University, OUP, and the Oxford Dictionary over the matter? Seems to me another case of "my style is the right one and all others are wrong". Amongst major dictionaries it appears the majority of lexicographers prefer the z style: Collins English: z (secondarily s) Chambers English: z (secondarily s) Collins Australian English: z (secondarily s) Merriam-Webster (US): z (no acknowledgment of s) Macquarie International (a.k.a. Encarta): z (secondarily s) OED: z (secondarily s) Macquarie Australian: s (secondarily z). Is the Macquarie Australian dictionary the only one that's "correct"? As for your "no rational reason behind it, not even pronunciation" assertion: when did rationality apply to the conventions of written English? If it's any consolation, my newspaper's house style is s -- despite the Australian OED's being our house reference for most spellings, and despite our proprietor's being an old Oxonian. « Last Edit: Jul 3, 2012, 12:36am by verbivore » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Belton (Moderator) Global Moderator member is offline John Richards, APS Chairman and Forum Moderator Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 263 Location: Boston, Lincs. UK Re: Please « Reply #3 on Jul 3, 2012, 9:12am » If Verbivore is correct then cheers for Cambridge and boos (or should it be booze) for Oxford. I find it appalling that two of our top educational establishments cannot agree on the correct spelling of a straightforward English word. For the record, and to stop beating about the bush, the APS says that realise is spelled with an "s' and not a "z" Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged John Richards (APS Chairman & Forum Moderator) verbivore Guest Re: Please « Reply #4 on Jul 3, 2012, 9:59am » Jul 3, 2012, 9:12am, Belton (Moderator) wrote: [...] boos (or should it be booze) for Oxford. [...] Or even boose, John? http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/ize-ise-or-yse?region=us http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/03/ize-or-ise/ From the above: The use of ‘-ize’ spellings is part of the house style at Oxford University Press. It reflects the style adopted in the first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (which was published in parts from 1884 to 1928) and in the first editions of Hart’s Rules (1904) and the Authors’ and Printers’ Dictionary (1905). These early works chose the ‘-ize’ spellings as their preferred forms for etymological  reasons: the -ize ending corresponds to the Greek verb endings -izo and -izein. The situation is slightly complicated by the fact that certain verbs must always be spelled with ‘-ise’ at the end in British English, rather than ‘-ize’: this is generally because they have come into the English language in a different way. For a list of these verbs see here. The difficulty in remembering which words belong to this group is perhaps one of the reasons that –ise spellings were adopted more widely in British English. The dictionary on the UK/World side of our website gives alternative ‘-ise’ spellings at the main entries for all ‘-ize’ words where it’s appropriate. In British English, it doesn’t matter which spelling convention is chosen: neither is right or wrong, and neither is ‘more right’ than the other. Fowler had this to say: [...] most English verbs that end in -ize or -ise and are pronounced [iz] go back to a Greek ending that contains a z. He pointed out that although British printers of his time followed the French practice of converting the z to an s in such verbs, the OED and other respected authorities kept the z. It would seem, John, that it's you, me, and Cambridge against the ROTW. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 909 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: Please « Reply #5 on Jul 3, 2012, 2:40pm » >In British English, it doesn’t matter which spelling convention is chosen: neither is right or wrong, and neither is ‘more right’ than the other. < Well, they said it about 'ize / -ise, but is it not pretty much the same as the James' / James's situation? And, John, surely we could add to that the spelled (as you have used) / spelt dichotomy. Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged verbivore Guest Re: Please « Reply #6 on Jul 3, 2012, 11:19pm » Jul 3, 2012, 2:40pm, Tone wrote: [...] And, John, surely we could add to that the spelled (as you have used) / spelt dichotomy. Tone Tone, I gather that orthographic dichotomies are not John's favourite phenomena. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 909 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: Please « Reply #7 on Jul 4, 2012, 8:37pm » Vv, >Tone, I gather that orthographic dichotomies are not John's favourite phenomena. < Here I go again: We note that "dichotomies" is plural, but surely "favourite" is singular. So should that not be "phenomenon". Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged verbivore Guest Re: Please « Reply #8 on Jul 5, 2012, 1:16am » Jul 4, 2012, 8:37pm, Tone wrote: Vv, >Tone, I gather that orthographic dichotomies are not John's favourite phenomena. < Here I go again: We note that "dichotomies" is plural, but surely "favourite" is singular. So should that not be "phenomenon". But favourite is here an adjective, Tone. We don't have "number" in adjectives, do we? One red house; five red houses ... If dichotomies (pl.) are (pl.), can they not be some things (pl.)? I suppose it depends on whether it's an individual dichotomy that JR has trouble with (so phenomenon) or dichotomies generally and in plural (then phenomena). Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave Advanced Member member is offline Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 701 Location: San Jose, CA Re: Please « Reply #9 on Jul 5, 2012, 7:02pm » I think that Tone's trying to say that one can have only one favorite--like unique or best (or other superlative), there should be only one favorite. I'm not sure that I agree in all cases. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 909 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: Please « Reply #10 on Jul 5, 2012, 8:57pm » >I think that Tone's trying to say that one can have only one favorite--like unique or best (or other superlative), there should be only one favorite. < Yes. (Nearly.) Either "his favourite" (singular), or "one of his favourites" (plural). Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave Advanced Member member is offline Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 701 Location: San Jose, CA Re: Please « Reply #11 on Jul 5, 2012, 10:05pm » Jul 5, 2012, 8:57pm, Tone wrote: >I think that Tone's trying to say that one can have only one favorite--like unique or best (or other superlative), there should be only one favorite. < Yes. (Nearly.) Either "his favourite" (singular), or "one of his favourites" (plural). Tone But note that Verbivore used favourite as an adjective, not a noun. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave verbivore Guest Re: Please « Reply #12 on Jul 5, 2012, 11:55pm » Jul 5, 2012, 10:05pm, Dave wrote: Jul 5, 2012, 8:57pm, Tone wrote: >I think that Tone's trying to say that one can have only one favorite--like unique or best (or other superlative), there should be only one favorite. < Yes. (Nearly.) Either "his favourite" (singular), or "one of his favourites" (plural). Tone But note that Verbivore used favourite as an adjective, not a noun. I've never come across the notion of "only one" favourite (parallel-ish to unique), even as a noun; and Dave's correct -- I was using it adjectivally. (Note: favourite was not regarded as an adj. by Johnson.) Here are some supporting quotations lifted from the OED (three of them from tomes on language / linguistics): As an adjective: (Note: not regarded as an adj. by Johnson) "Every particular Master in this Art [criticism] has his favourite Passages in an Author." -- 1711, Addison Spect. No. 262 ⁋9 "Their favourite anecdotes had all been told" -- 1870, E. Peacock Ralf Skirl. 52 "Certain forms [of sentence-type] are favorite sentence-forms" -- 1933, Bloomfield Lang. xi. 171 "In English we have two favorite sentence-forms" -- 1933 Bloomfield Lang. xi. 172 "The patterns common to large numbers of the sentences of a language may be called its favourite sentence types" -- 1964, R. H. Robins Gen. Ling. vi. 232 And as a noun: "Some persons are … favourites of heaven" -- 1876, Mozley Univ. Serm. vii. 155 "Like favourites, Made proud by Princes" -- 1599, Shakes. Much Ado iii. i. 9 "He bestowed on his favourites the palaces which he had built" -- 1776, Gibbon Decl. & F. I. xvii. 443 "Sooner I would‥with immodest fav'rites shade my face" -- 1720, Gay Espousals 74 in Poems II. 376 "They [curls]‥ill deserved the name of ‘favourites’" -- 1753, Hogarth Anal. Beauty vi. 78 "They have prevailed but too much already with their too credulous favourites" -- 1585–7, T Rogers 39 Art. Pref. (1607) 12 "Neither the breeders nor fauorites of discord" -- 1589, R. Harvey Pl. Perc. 12 "This factious bandying of their Fauourites" -- 1591, Shakes. 1 Hen. VI, iv. i. 190 Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 909 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: Please « Reply #13 on Jul 6, 2012, 8:56pm » I have no further support for my contention, but I'll stick by my opinion. Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Forum Jump--------------------» Home--------------------» General--------------------- Apostrophe Use & Abuse --- Welcome, APS Policy & Forum News- Other English Language Problems

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