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APS Message Forum :: General :: Other English Language Problems :: The 'two commas' rule? « Page 2 of 3 » Jump to page   Go     Author Topic: The 'two commas' rule? (Read 1,025 times) Belton (Moderator) Global Moderator member is offline John Richards, APS Chairman and Forum Moderator Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 267 Location: Boston, Lincs. UK Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #15 on Jan 18, 2012, 7:17pm » Could I ask if the same guides mention another series. "2,3 or 4" or "2,3,or 4" Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged John Richards (APS Chairman & Forum Moderator) Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 918 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #16 on Jan 18, 2012, 9:47pm » >The sentence he was pale blue and shivering has a different meaning from he was pale, blue, and shivering, the latter being synonymous with he was pale and blue and shivering. < Indeed they are different in meaning. And so would be: "he was pale, blue and shivering" be different again. (But mayhap we could also write: "he was pale-blue and shivering". Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 918 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #17 on Jan 18, 2012, 9:50pm » >Could I ask if the same guides mention another series. "2,3 or 4" or "2,3,or 4" < Well, I think that most of us would at least use a space after each comma. For myself, I would certainly use the HOC and write:"2, 3, or 4". Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged verbivore Guest Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #18 on Jan 18, 2012, 11:00pm » Jan 18, 2012, 2:22pm, Belton (Moderator) wrote: The guides you mention have their opinion, I have mine. Indeed. However, CMoS, HSG, OGS, Hart's Rules, and Fowler's MEU have the cachet of authority. Quote: How do they justify commas on more than two items and not just in two. Those tomes are commonly available, John; you could check them for their justifications. Quote: It is a question of style, not grammar. Agreed. The references given are, after all, style guides, not grammars. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged verbivore Guest Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #19 on Jan 18, 2012, 11:02pm » Jan 18, 2012, 7:17pm, Belton (Moderator) wrote: Could I ask if the same guides mention another series. "2,3 or 4" or "2,3,or 4" Yes, and they make no differentiation between lists of words and lists of numbers. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave Advanced Member member is offline Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 717 Location: San Jose, CA Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #20 on Jan 19, 2012, 10:43am » Jan 18, 2012, 2:22pm, Belton (Moderator) wrote: The guides you mention have their opinion, I have mine. How do they justify commas on more than two items and not just in two. It is a question of style, not grammar. They don't need to justify what they report as being used commonly and acceptably in the world of writing and editing. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave Pete Advanced Member member is offline Punctuation is the virtue of the bored! Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 738 Location: Leicester, UK Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #21 on Jan 21, 2012, 11:41am » Jan 17, 2012, 1:38pm, Belton (Moderator) wrote: There is no need for a second comma in red, white and blue, any more than one would write "I had eggs, and bacon for breakfast" Oxford comma? Bah, humbug. We agree! Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged sae New Member member is offline Joined: Feb 2012 Gender: Female Posts: 3 Location: Kent Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #22 on Feb 6, 2012, 8:26pm » I was always taught that you shouldn't put a comma before 'and', but there was never any mention of how many commas should be in a sentence. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 918 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #23 on Feb 6, 2012, 10:39pm » >I was always taught that you shouldn't put a comma before 'and'< A pity that you weren't taught about the HOC! Tone Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged hubertus Senior Member member is offline Joined: Jan 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 473 Location: W. Yorkshire, England Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #24 on Feb 6, 2012, 11:56pm » I spend a lot of time trying to get school children to use capital letters and full stops. If I ever achieve 100% compliance with these conventions, I might concentrate on commas. I shant be teaching them the HOC though. They never 'learned' us that at my school. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave Advanced Member member is offline Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 717 Location: San Jose, CA Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #25 on Feb 7, 2012, 7:33am » Feb 6, 2012, 8:26pm, sae wrote: I was always taught that you shouldn't put a comma before 'and', It depends on what the and is doing. If it's joining two main clauses, it should be preceded by a comma (unless those clauses are very short!). If it's joining two items as a unit, then it is not used before or after the and. If it's joining the last in a series of three or more items (or phrases, clauses, units, etc.), then it's a matter of personal style. I (and Tone, Verbivore, and others) prefer the serial comma. belton, hubertis, and others prefer not to use it. What you were taught (or perhaps remember being taught) was that teacher's personal style. Feb 6, 2012, 8:26pm, sae wrote: but there was never any mention of how many commas should be in a sentence. Jan 16, 2012, 3:00am, I wrote: Use as many as are needed but no more! It's interesting to note how many "rules" of English start out with I was always taught ... Never begin a sentence with a conjunction Never end a sentence with a preposition Never split an infinitive Never (or Always) use a comma before the last item in a series etc. What you were being taught was the teacher's choice of personal style concerning those things. There are plenty of things we must always or never do when writing, but there are a few things that are a matter of style. And some styles are more widely accepted than others. To be too far off the norm inhibits your reader's ability to understand your points clearly. So if communication is your goal in writing (and why else would you be writing?), then write to your audience in a style understandable to them, throwing out those "rules" that tend to hinder. « Last Edit: Feb 7, 2012, 8:01am by Dave » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave Dave Advanced Member member is offline Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 717 Location: San Jose, CA Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #26 on Feb 7, 2012, 8:05am » How do you scoffers feel about the serial comma when it's used with but or or instead of and as the conjunction? There can be two, four, but not six players of the game. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Dave hubertus Senior Member member is offline Joined: Jan 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 473 Location: W. Yorkshire, England Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #27 on Feb 7, 2012, 8:35am » I so much agree with your post about teachers personal style, Dave. I was also once told my story was ' too far fetched to ring true' by a teacher. It totally inhibited my creative writing as a consequence. Decades later we have J K Rowling, Terry Pratchett etc who broke my teachers rule and made millions. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Tone Advanced Member member is offline "I don't do Happy." Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 918 Location: West of London (ex-Hampshire) Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #28 on Feb 7, 2012, 9:38pm » >Decades later we have J K Rowling, Terry Pratchett etc who broke my teachers rule and made millions. < And, of course, Tolkien, who insisted on "try and ..." even though his editor/publisher tried to correct it to "try to ..." (as it should have been). Tone « Last Edit: Feb 7, 2012, 9:40pm by Tone » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged verbivore Guest Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #29 on Feb 8, 2012, 9:07am » Feb 7, 2012, 8:05am, Dave wrote: How do you scoffers feel about the serial comma when it's used with but or or instead of and as the conjunction? There can be two, four, but not six players of the game. and / or / but And and or get the HOC treatment from me when appropriate. Those are both simple conjunctions and usually can be treated equally. But seems to pose problems, and I'm scratching for a valid example of a HOC-but list. The flag included red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet but pink, white, gold, or brown could be added later. She must choose from pink, mauve, taupe, or lemon. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged « Page 2 of 3 » Jump to page   Go     Forum Jump--------------------» Home--------------------» General--------------------- Apostrophe Use & Abuse --- Welcome, APS Policy & Forum News- Other English Language Problems

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