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Joined: Jan 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 4 Location: United Kingdom
The 'two commas' rule? « Thread Started on Jan 15, 2012, 8:25pm »
I was once told, by a part-time journalist friend, that a sentence should never contain an odd number of commas.
I understand that a sentence with a qualifier, such as this one, should still make sense with the commas and contents removed. How about "red, white and blue", though, surely that shouldn't have a second comma?
I was once told, by a part-time journalist friend, that a sentence should never contain an odd number of commas.
And now you are told, by a full-time subeditor / editor / proofreader / style-guide author / ... of some decades' deep orthographical immersion that your journalist friend's advice is peculiar. (This doesn't make me The Expert -- I don't believe in those. )
I do understand the frequent need for 'commatical' symmetry such as demonstrated in your opening sentence; however, as Dave advised: use as many as are needed but no more -- or, to use a term coined / debuted on this or similar forum, do not overcommaplicate. If a sentence needs an excessive number of commas it's probably better recast into shorter bites; or at least apply some semicolonic relief at appropriate junctures. A good example of overcommaplication can be found in the writings of EM Forster.*
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I understand that a sentence with a qualifier, such as this one, should still make sense with the commas and contents removed.
I agree. It is commonly applied style today, especially in space-critical contexts such as newsprint, to eliminate as many superfluous glyphs as possible -- without negatively affecting readability, of course.
Whereas in former times the dominant style may have been "Business manager, Mr. Bruce T. Smythe, was in town today ...", nowadays it's more likely to be rendered "Business manager Mr Bruce T Smythe was in town today ...".
One epidemic mistake is to insert a (single) comma between a verb and its subject, thus separating the actor from her/his/its action: a no-no-no. Example:
"Business manager Mr Bruce T Smythe, was in town today ..." -- there one can see the need for symmetry, either that of a pair of commas: "Business manager, Mr Bruce T Smythe, was in town today ..." or none: "Business manager Mr Bruce T Smythe was in town today ...".
The parenthetical pair enclosing the disposable substatement / qualification may be placed between subject and verb; this is not a subject-verb separation because the substatement and its commas can be omitted without problem.
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How about "red, white and blue", though, surely that shouldn't have a second comma?
This is a different matter: the serial comma (a.k.a. [Holy] Oxford comma, Harvard comma) is not universally applied; rather, it is a matter of style.
Stylistic consistency throughout a document or series of documents is to be desired, so should one employ a serial comma to avoid an ambiguity, then there's an argument for document-wide consistency of serial comma use. If one chooses a 'HOC'-free style, then again, consistency is desirable; but should one find the need for too many exceptions (in aid of clarity) then the piece needs either universal application of the serial comma or a recasting to eliminate ambiguities.
I am a personal user of the HOC and it's part of my own house style guide (from my publisher days). I do not use it, however, in my work as subeditor / proofreader of newspapers, nor did I in my previous employment as an academic editor / publications officer -- why? Because those are / were Aussie institutions and the serial comma has never been part of official or casual Ozlish orthography. Back in the Dark Ages of my schooling (50s--60s) in Oz it was strictly taught that one must never use a comma immediately preceding a conjunction. What tosh! (But of course, schoolteachers, particularly in junior schooling levels, need to Keep It Simple ... . Similar comments can be applied to those "never start a sentence with a conjunction" and "never end a sentence with a preposition" maxims. Whilst such practices might (or not) lead to better writing, such "rules" -- often invented by semi-informed schoolmasters, or frustrated editors -- are utter tosh.)
From my studying and extensive reading it appears that the serial comma is more used in US English (formal and informal) than in UK English (outside Oxford U and OUP) or Oz (where one rarely encounters it informally, and never formally).
* EM Forster, in Abinger Harvest (p. 109), commenting on sentence structure and demonstrating by his style the very phenomenon that he’s criticising. The quotation is lifted from his biography Morgan by Nicola Beauman.
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A sentence begins quite simply, then it undulates and expands, parentheses intervene like quickset hedges, the flowers of comparison bloom, and three fields off, like a wounded partridge, crouches the principal verb, making one wonder as one picks it up, poor little thing, whether after all it was worth such a tramp, so many guns and such expensive dogs, and what, after all, is the relation to the main subject, potted so gaily half a page back, and proving finally to have been in the accusative case. Note: 15 commas.
Don't mind me; I'm just letting off steam as I wind down from having put another newspaper to bed (13 hours of subbing / proofing, effectively reading the whole 96 pages -- ads, editorial, everything except the three-point type of the sports results -- three times).
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 264 Location: Boston, Lincs. UK
Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #8 on Jan 17, 2012, 1:38pm »
There is no need for a second comma in red, white and blue, any more than one would write "I had eggs, and bacon for breakfast" Oxford comma? Bah, humbug.
There is no need for a second comma in red, white and blue, any more than one would write "I had eggs, and bacon for breakfast" Oxford comma? Bah, humbug.
You appear to miss the point, John. Yes, eggs, and bacon is wrong -- because the serial comma comes into play only once there are three or more items -- never just two.
The Oxford Guide to Style, Chicago Manual of Style, and Fowler all recommend its use (though the AP Stylebook does not). I understand space restrictions in a newspaper, but when writing for a more spacious medium such as a book I would always employ the serial comma.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 264 Location: Boston, Lincs. UK
Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #13 on Jan 18, 2012, 2:22pm »
The guides you mention have their opinion, I have mine. How do they justify commas on more than two items and not just in two. It is a question of style, not grammar.
Re: The 'two commas' rule? « Reply #14 on Jan 18, 2012, 5:02pm »
Surely there is no need for a comma when we include the conjunction, e.g. red and white and blue, or eggs and bacon.
The sentence he was pale blue and shivering has a different meaning from he was pale, blue, and shivering, the latter being synonymous with he was pale and blue and shivering.
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